What would sound best MS or TI? Plenty power, want best SQ!

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:45 am

FuzzyHoNutz wrote:
STROKD wrote:
maka78 wrote: http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html
Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and the M was supposed to be the entry level stuff...
I don't believe that is a true statement........ The Saphire line was entry level.....The M series was a mid line that preformed(and cost ) like a top of the amp. I've always loved the M amps....

The Saphire was jank, I didn't even know about it till the late 90s.

It was SUPER entry level...

The post above me sumarizes well, similar amps but less balls.

You said you never even heard a MS, its the poo dude, they get the F down... If you like to rock out and still have SQ, I still haven't heard an amp touch em.

That reminds me, the TI stuff gets weak when cranked up, Im just gonna do the MS gear, I think it will sound better the way I like to listen to music. 120+ db or nothing.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:51 am

STROKD wrote:
FuzzyHoNutz wrote:
STROKD wrote:Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and the M was supposed to be the entry level stuff...
I don't believe that is a true statement........ The Saphire line was entry level.....The M series was a mid line that preformed(and cost ) like a top of the amp. I've always loved the M amps....
The Saphire was jank, I didn't even know about it till the late 90s. It was SUPER entry level...

The post above me sumarizes well, similar amps but less balls. You said you never even heard a MS, its the poo dude, they get the F down... If you like to rock out and still have SQ, I still haven't heard an amp touch em.

That reminds me, the TI stuff gets weak when cranked up, Im just gonna do the MS gear, I think it will sound better the way I like to listen to music. 120+ db or nothing.

You're confusing the two fuzzys. I'm the one that's never heard an MS.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:56 am

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:
STROKD wrote:
FuzzyHoNutz wrote: I don't believe that is a true statement........ The Saphire line was entry level.....The M series was a mid line that preformed(and cost ) like a top of the amp. I've always loved the M amps....
The Saphire was jank, I didn't even know about it till the late 90s. It was SUPER entry level...

The post above me sumarizes well, similar amps but less balls. You said you never even heard a MS, its the poo dude, they get the F down... If you like to rock out and still have SQ, I still haven't heard an amp touch em.

That reminds me, the TI stuff gets weak when cranked up, Im just gonna do the MS gear, I think it will sound better the way I like to listen to music. 120+ db or nothing.

You're confusing the two fuzzys. I'm the one that's never heard an MS.

arghhh too many Fuzzys up in here, ok I sorry, I still think the MS sounds better than a M... I always wanted a Route 66, but figured what was the point when it didn't sound as good as Franky.

Post by **kg1961** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:15 am

I have used the m ms and ti/zx products
the ms I like but there is no xover they sound 100% like the ti (in my mind)
I do like the ti as they are fan cooled and the xover are great
heat = nosie
you have a great deck, sub etc I think It will all come down to the install
on what will sound better
just hope you have extra batt. H/O alt. etc ...
the M are great amps just alot of time and with the newer subs that need alot of power they can't compare
I have a jl 10w7 and 12w6v2 love them both but they need good clean power 400-750w
in the 90's I used allot of jl 10w1 10w4 and 10w0 this is were the M amp are great
you will be happy with the off roads!!! I didn't buy them because I can't get the power to them that they need..

Post by **kg1961** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 am

forgot what is the output on the denon z1? if it is 4volts or higher
you will have a better chance of clipping the ms/m amp
the ti love loud clean sound
if you like it loud like you say go with the ti

Post by **Rold Gold** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:27 am

3 JL15w6's off an M100 wired series/parallel was pretty fukin loud........it's all I need......

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:42 am

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:
STROKD wrote:
maka78 wrote:IDK if you saw this, but I just came around it... http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html
Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and hte M was supposed to be the entry level stuff... The M just sounds 10 times better than most entry level amps, so it wasn't really thought of that way, but to the MS owner back then, that was a Camaro (M series) to a Corvette (MS/MPS)...

I still think the MS has a lower THD (My MS amps all spec in the .003-.007 range), but I like the look of the TI better.
The M and MS have basically identical audio circuitry. The MS power supply outclasses the M significantly though.

whats the THD onthe TI's? if i remember correctly the m series THD is in the same ballpark as the ms. my M50 was .005-.007. and yes the MS has GOBS more power. my M50 was killer, i ran my whole system off that puppy, but my buddy was running MS in his camaro and yes he had WAAAYYY more power. hey FUZZY, back then i didnt have the dough 4 the MS, thats the only reason i didnt have the MS series. if rock was more available in my town back then id have the SICKEST MS stockpile around!!! lol

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:15 am

oldskoolmseriesfan wrote:
fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:
STROKD wrote:Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and hte M was supposed to be the entry level stuff... The M just sounds 10 times better than most entry level amps, so it wasn't really thought of that way, but to the MS owner back then, that was a Camaro (M series) to a Corvette (MS/MPS)...

I still think the MS has a lower THD (My MS amps all spec in the .003-.007 range), but I like the look of the TI better.
The M and MS have basically identical audio circuitry. The MS power supply outclasses the M significantly though.
whats the THD onthe TI's? if i remember correctly the m series THD is in the same ballpark as the ms. my M50 was .005-.007. and yes the MS has GOBS more power. my M50 was killer, i ran my whole system off that puppy, but my buddy was running MS in his camaro and yes he had WAAAYYY more power. hey FUZZY, back then i didnt have the dough 4 the MS, thats the only reason i didnt have the MS series. if rock was more available in my town back then id have the SICKEST MS stockpile around!!! lol

LOL This guy knows!!! MS FTW!

I think THD on the TIs is like .01 or something... still good, but not as sick as the M/MS stuff. I have my cert for my 1200 at home, I could look at it when I get back if anyone is really curious, I just know for certain it is not .00X%.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:18 am

FuzzyHoNutz wrote:3 JL15w6's off an M100 wired series/parallel was pretty fukin loud........it's all I need......

dude, a 2125 or a 2250! would have destroyed shit...

My loudest system was a 1995 Integra, I had my FAS (2125) running 3 ohm stereo so 2 12W6s (original ones) in a fifth order ported into the glass... I had the gains ALL the way down, and at full volume on the deck (not clipping~so I could have turned it up more if I wanted to mess with the gain) it hit 146 at the glass on an Audio control at a show back in the mid 90s... Now that isn't some crazy db truck, but this was a SQ system that sounded very damn good.

You could hear that little car for over a mile way... it was retarded loud, and Im glad I can still hear for the most part.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:24 am

mikelycka wrote:forgot what is the output on the denon z1? if it is 4volts or higher
you will have a better chance of clipping the ms/m amp
the ti love loud clean sound
if you like it loud like you say go with the ti

its 4 off the RCAs, 8 with balanced line outs...

All the MS amps I have have 5 volt input with gains all way down (FAS has 2 volt but never minded a 5-6 volt signal) My Alpine which I am starting with has a 4 volt input signal as well... Probably not as good of a 4 volt as the Z1, but like I said, I am going to start with it )because it's already installed in the car) and less likely to get stolen.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:32 am

STROKD wrote:
mikelycka wrote:forgot what is the output on the denon z1? if it is 4volts or higher
you will have a better chance of clipping the ms/m amp
the ti love loud clean sound
if you like it loud like you say go with the ti
its 4 off the RCAs, 8 with balanced line outs...

All the MS amps I have have 5 volt input with gains all way down (FAS has 2 volt but never minded a 5-6 volt signal) My Alpine which I am starting with has a 4 volt input signal as well... Probably not as good of a 4 volt as the Z1, but like I said, I am going to start with it )because it's already installed in the car) and less likely to get stolen.

MS specs straight from PG say 200mV to 2V for input sensitivity. Not sure what their "input voltage" spec is though as it's quite high.

http://webfaq.phoenixphorum.com/MS_MPS.htm

Not saying you can't drive them with more input voltage, but those are the specs.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:39 am

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:
STROKD wrote:
mikelycka wrote:forgot what is the output on the denon z1? if it is 4volts or higher
you will have a better chance of clipping the ms/m amp
the ti love loud clean sound
if you like it loud like you say go with the ti
its 4 off the RCAs, 8 with balanced line outs...

All the MS amps I have have 5 volt input with gains all way down (FAS has 2 volt but never minded a 5-6 volt signal) My Alpine which I am starting with has a 4 volt input signal as well... Probably not as good of a 4 volt as the Z1, but like I said, I am going to start with it )because it's already installed in the car) and less likely to get stolen.
MS specs straight from PG say 200mV to 2V for input sensitivity. Not sure what their "input voltage" spec is though as it's quite high.

http://webfaq.phoenixphorum.com/MS_MPS.htm

Not saying you can't drive them with more input voltage, but those are the specs.

agreed, and thats the #s on my FAS amps... BUT my 2250s and my TAs all show a 5 and not a 2 at the low side of the gain... any reason for descrepancy? I know my FAS was built in 1992, and my 2250s I picked up have a late 96 build date. Phil did tell me my 2250 was an early revised version 2, so maybe they changed from 2 volt to 5 volts on the newer amps (since the TA stuff shows 5 volts too)?? Would make sense to adapt to better higher voltage radios to cater to this on the amp, right? In 1992 there weren't many "4 volt" decks around...

thedeal7235 · Post by **thedeal7235** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:51 am

How far are you from Orlando? Mayb you come down here, or overhere-depends on your usa locale, and well try 'em all out( and, please bring BOTH denon z1s

Post by **Rold Gold** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:10 am

He reps the BEST coast.........

Like quite a few of us........

deathcloud · Post by **deathcloud** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:11 am

WEST SIII EEEEEEDD

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:26 am

STROKD wrote:agreed, and thats the #s on my FAS amps... BUT my 2250s and my TAs all show a 5 and not a 2 at the low side of the gain... any reason for descrepancy? I know my FAS was built in 1992, and my 2250s I picked up have a late 96 build date. Phil did tell me my 2250 was an early revised version 2, so maybe they changed from 2 volt to 5 volts on the newer amps (since the TA stuff shows 5 volts too)?? Would make sense to adapt to better higher voltage radios to cater to this on the amp, right? In 1992 there weren't many "4 volt" decks around...

You're probably right on that one. They did make revisions and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that those specs on the webfaq were for the original revisions only.

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:00 pm

say guys,
what is difference between the:

Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volts

and

Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts

curious to know as

Post by **stipud** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:05 pm

mhyde71 wrote:say guys,
what is difference between the:

Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volts

and

Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts

curious to know as

Uhhh... One takes 10.5-15 volts... the other takes 200mV-2V.

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:09 pm

stipud wrote:
mhyde71 wrote:say guys,
what is difference between the:

Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volts

and

Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts

curious to know as
Uhhh... One takes 10.5-15 volts... the other takes 200mV-2V.

okay, well and as soon as i posted this i said doh!
what i meant to ask is what is the difference between the two... i.e. what is input sensativity versus volatge range?? or is this the wrong thread to ask?

I'm just trying to figure out how the 4/6/8volts comes into play with the sensativity being upto 2v, andthe range starting at 10v??

Thumper88 · Post by **Thumper88** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:12 pm

stipud wrote:
mhyde71 wrote:say guys,
what is difference between the:

Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volts

and

Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts

curious to know as
Uhhh... One takes 10.5-15 volts... the other takes 200mV-2V.

lol...not to mention the 10.5 to 15.0 volts spec is power input DC range (from battery/charging system), and the input sensitivity is the preamp input AC range...RCA input.

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:23 pm

Thumper88 wrote:
stipud wrote:
mhyde71 wrote:say guys,
what is difference between the:

Input Voltage Range 10.5 volts to 15.0 volts

and

Input Sensitivity 200 millivolts to 2 volts

curious to know as
Uhhh... One takes 10.5-15 volts... the other takes 200mV-2V.
lol...not to mention the 10.5 to 15.0 volts spec is power input DC range (from battery/charging system), and the input sensitivity is the preamp input AC range...RCA input.

okay well shit it's been a rough day for me at work and it just looks different on the screen than in manual.. but i could swear I saw that it was 10-15.5DCV input.. and I say that b/c I was looking at an USAmps optimizer which does 16... what would happen if you threw in 16volts to ms amp?? burn/blow up?? But yeah seems to be just a slight discreptancy between numbers posted but I can live with that...

And so, on the input voltage from HU it is rated for only 200mv to 2v?? that seems awfully low... does that mean then using a Line driver that's spittin' out 5/6/8 volts is not good for the MS gear?? I used to have one, but not anymore, but had been considering getting one for the sub amp (2250)??

oh and we're not thread jacking are we(me)?? sorry if so.. i can move it over and out if need be... just that it came up in discussion and has me thinking now..