Barack Obama Becomes America's First Black President

[bdubs767]

. You're saying that business is greedy (and I will agree, to an extent)

I dont agree with that. How is it greedy for one to want to make more money if they they are willing to work for it? If you work for it you must be compensated correct? So why is it wrong for a company to make more money if they work for it? What they make is dictated by supply and demand.

[bdubs767]

No, by government intervention, I mean things like ensuring that criminal business practices remain illegal. Without ANY government intervention (as you guys are saying, less is better), many businesses would do some insanely bad stuff. Corporate excess and greed has been coming to a head ever since that ENRON sham a few years ago.

Your taking "no Govt intervention" to an extreme. That would be anarchy. IMO the govt. should have four purposes.

1.) Uphold the Laws. Which prevents the illegal business tactics you have mentioned.

2.) Infostructure.

3.) Defense.

4.) Educate the youth, as it is the single most important factor to keeping the nation at it's best.

Since then I have very little faith that some businesses actually do what is best for the economy, and would instead sink the whole ship to make a buck if they could.

If they try to make $ they are nto sinking the economy they are helping it out. The only time they hurt it is when the do illegal actions.

[bretti_kivi]

but that assumes that the lawmakers have the country's best interests at heart.

so, question: do you think this is true? Are lawmakers interested in the country or themselves or both? Where do you think their priorities lie?

Bret

[bdubs767]

but that assumes that the lawmakers have the country's best interests at heart.

so, question: do you think this is true? Are lawmakers interested in the country or themselves or both? Where do you think their priorities lie?

Bret

Thats the purposes of a democracy, and a new vote every how many years it is depending on the position.

[stipud]

I agree with most things you say Brandon, except I will have to agree to disagree with you that companies who are making money "legally" can do nothing wrong. There are still many loopholes and immoral practices that are unfairly taken advantage of, in the best interests of the company, but at a detriment to the consumer, the country or the economy.

Have you never had a business lie or cut corners, just so they could make more money off of you? Happens all the time to me; it's just human nature. But in some cases, these practices are so bad, they SHOULD be illegal... like banks purposely marketing and selling loans towards people who they know can't afford them.

Legal, yes... but it was a huge detriment to the people who bought the loans, and to the economy. My point is that the government should have protected the people and the economy by NOT making these practices legal.

[bdubs767]

I agree with most things you say Brandon, except I will have to agree to disagree with you that companies who are making money "legally" can do nothing wrong. There are still many loopholes and immoral practices that are unfairly taken advantage of, in the best interests of the company, but at a detriment to the consumer, the country or the economy.

Have you never had a business lie or cut corners, just so they could make more money off of you? Happens all the time to me; it's just human nature. But in some cases, these practices are so bad, they SHOULD be illegal... like banks purposely marketing and selling loans towards people who they know can't afford them.

Legal, yes... but it was a huge detriment to the people who bought the loans, and to the economy. My point is that the government should have protected the people and the economy by NOT making these practices legal.

We agree hand and hand....then the Govt steps in and steps up laws to protect people and smaller busniesses from practices that are truly wrong. Like they have done with anti trust laws and many others. That's why we have election and are all able to vote, to be abel to elect the people we thign wil serve the needs of the people the best.

Now my rant....people that dont vote that have the ability to be able to, should be sent over to North Korea for 5 years to learn the value of being able vote and live in a democracy.

[denim]

With the massive record breaking tax increases in the last two years here in Maryland, I have considered moving my family and SSA to Delaware. Now with this out come, it is not worth it in the end. It is already very expensive to live here and it is only going up, and now if any of the proposals go through (and most if not all will, regardless of the irresponsible spending, with total democrat control) we will not be sitting where we want to be. We have already met with our financial planner and he is re-working our finances to increase tax-differed investing or savings. Not going to wait for them to have the chance to take more then they already do. If I lived in Texas or Arizona I probably would not be as upset, but I live in Maryland so we could be pinched worse then we already are.

[Francious70]

like banks purposely marketing and selling loans towards people who they know can't afford them.

I disagree with you here. I don't believe the bank really sold these mortgages knowing the people can't pay. That's like flushing money down the toilet. If you want your company to make money, you would NOT make those kind of loans.

A big part of this specific problem was the housing market trying to appease the bureaucrats AND the consumers falsifying information to qualify for the loan.

It's not uncommon in my line of business for a customer to tell you they make $2000 a month, so you approve the loan only for them to show up with proof that they only make $1250 per month. What do you do? in my business you turn them away.

And that's another problem, the bank were making loan to people they had no business dealing with. These are the loans that finance companies like mine should have been making, not banks.

[stipud]

You would think it wouldn't be profitable, but it was... through securitization. They could sell these loans to people who couldn't afford it, bundle the debts with others, and sell it off to bigger banks, so that there was no risk to themselves. The government had created a loophole that these institutions took advantage of, in order to make a profit.

And at the time it would have been a no-brainer, because if the person didn't pay their debts, they would get to take their house. And since the market was (artificially) increasing the value of houses, they would still make a profit that way.

The banks started selling these mortgages to people who couldn't afford it. It's not like all these people just up and decided one day to fraudulently take out mortgages. These things were specifically marketed and sold to them, because the businesses found a way to profit from it, albeit one that inevitably destroyed the economy. If it was nothing but people lying in order to get a mortgage, the economy would have failed long ago. It's only because of the loopholes that the government created, and the businesses took advantage of, that this came to pass.

Read the article that I linked on the last page... it's got my back yo


I can understand why your company would not want to sell these loans... I would say Kudos to that! But there are many other shadier places where this kind of shit was their lifeline.

[Bfowler]

unfortunately tom is right on the nose with that^ they didnt give a crap about what happened aster they passed off the loan

[bdubs767]

Tom lets run for office.....then take over the world.....I mean help the people

[Francious70]

Tom I completely agree with you. If there wasn't a way for the mortgage companies to make a profit they wouldn't have done the loans.

What I'm trying to say is you can't put the blame squarely on the Businesses that profited during the boom. I know you're not implying that, I just want to make sure everyone here understands that yes, the Businesses were at fault, but so were all these people

[stipud]

All I'm saying is that the guilt is spread equally. You seemed to be arguing that the businesses had nothing to do with the issue, and it was the fault of government intervention or stupid/cheating people.

- The government fucked up and made this loophole.
- The businesses took advantage of the loophole and purposely sold shady loans to people who couldn't afford them.
- The people for being dumb enough to fall for it.

Group hug guys?

I totally agree with Brandon though on deficit spending. I can't think of any cases where that hasn't worked to get out of an economic slump.

I know Holland went through a recession as recent as the 90's, so their government just hired people to plant flowers in traffic circles and other small stuff... thus creating businesses, jobs, and improving quality of life in the process. Also, they got many people to agree to taking off a day every couple weeks, so that there would be more jobs available for everyone. It's cool progressive ideas like that, which make me appreciate socialist countries.

What I appreciated the most however, was their education. Every time I lived in Europe, I learned more in a few months than I would learn in Canada in a year. I always came back to Canadian schools WAY ahead of all the other students in my grade. In fact, I recall my teachers actively working to make me stupider... they made me write in bubble letters with a pencil because I was already doing calligraphy with a pen in grade 2

[bretti_kivi]

you lived here when you were young? Oha. My six-year-old is complaining when I say "ass" - "you should go to the bathroom to say things like that". OTOH, I'm complaining about her American accent...

Provocative question:
How long do you think it will take before some redneck tries to kill him?

Bret

[stipud]

you lived here when you were young? Oha. My six-year-old is complaining when I say "ass" - "you should go to the bathroom to say things like that". OTOH, I'm complaining about her American accent...

Provocative question:
How long do you think it will take before some redneck tries to kill him?

Bret

Well, I was born in Lund, Sweden to a Dutch father, and a German => Canadian expat mother. I go to Holland at least every two years for the summer... but in '92 we lived there for a half year. I also came back after that and did school there over the summer because I enjoyed it so much. In 2000 I did a 3 month student exchange to Munich, and in 2003 I spent 3 months working in Linkoping


And wasn't there already some skinhead plot to kill him? There must be a million racist fucks just waiting for a chance to off him. In fact, I'm really impressed that he made it this far! Kudos to the secret service!

[bretti_kivi]

aaaaaahhh, that explains a lot

Bret

[Francious70]

you lived here when you were young? Oha. My six-year-old is complaining when I say "ass" - "you should go to the bathroom to say things like that". OTOH, I'm complaining about her American accent...

Provocative question:
How long do you think it will take before some redneck tries to kill him?

Bret

Well, I was born in Lund, Sweden to a Dutch father, and a German => Canadian expat mother. I go to Holland at least every two years for the summer... but in '92 we lived there for a half year. I also came back after that and did school there over the summer because I enjoyed it so much. In 2000 I did a 3 month student exchange to Munich, and in 2003 I spent 3 months working in Linkoping


And wasn't there already some skinhead plot to kill him? There must be a million racist fucks just waiting for a chance to off him. In fact, I'm really impressed that he made it this far! Kudos to the secret service!

Enh, they said he was trying to assassinate him, but there wern't really any plans in place to pull it off.

[brenzbmr@sb]

for those who want some more salt to the wound watch part 2

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[OldSchoolFool]

Community Organizer
Reformer
Good Speech Giver
Volunatry/Mandatory Youth Service
Creating a new Civilian Military
Military Expansion
Elected By Popular Vote
Socialist
Friends hate Jews

Be careful what you wish for....

[stipud]