The official CES thread!

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:23 pm

Canada has a new Rodin distributor now. From once side of the country (Trends, Vancouver) to the other (AVS, Montreal)

http://www.cepro.com/article/rodin_name ... ributor/K3

Grim0013 · Post by **Grim0013** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:00 pm

stipud wrote:I'm not personally going, but I will be appearing in the marketing videos for these guys. Look for the scruffy white guy
http://www.psykoaudio.com/

They work right next door to me. It's definitely an interesting design for a surround sound headphone. The 5 speakers are actually in the headband, and it uses "horns" (the orange parts) to transfer the sound into the headset. Ends up being more convincing than cans that have all the drivers built into the earpieces, and it doesn't require DSP. Unfortunately you lose efficiency with the drivers in the headband, so it requires an amplifier... otherwise it plugs straight into a 5.1 soundcard for its signal (you can run it without the amp but the effect isn't great).

If anyone sees them there, tell them Tom from Wmode says hi

The idea of using waveguides for 5.1 gaming 'phones sounds pretty awesome to me. I'm not much of a gamer these days, but I'd still consider something like this for when I do play. Age, injury and VA provided opiates have dulled my reaction time, so I need every edge I can get.

I know exactly what the later poster was talking about with the way Bioshock and other games play with clarity to give a perception of direction, but that is a hack at best. It relies on changing the sound to establish position. The "odd" sound clues you in that it is not coming from in front, but it doesn't tell you where it is actually coming from. Further, when dealing with something like a single gun shot, you don't really get enough data for your brain to localize the sound with this method. You have to rely on your brain to process the changing sound as you "move" in-game. Sure, it works for speech or similarly sustained sounds, but I find it much less effective when dealing with a "singularity" since there is no continuing sound. This method is kind of like using triangulation to pinpoint position on a map. (except instead of using a second point source at the same time, it relies upon a follow-up in the time domain to fix position) In a competitive FPS environment, being able to instantly and accurately pinpoint the source's direction can and does make a difference. Is it game-changing? No, but it does help, and from experience in competitive gaming, a 30 or 40 millisecond edge can make or break you in some situations. How many times has someone taken a shot at you, but missed, so you take cover, only to find they still have a good sight picture on you because you didn't accurately localize the source?

One thing I am very curious about, as it would weigh heavily in my decision to purchase, is how well can you hear external sound? Like, with these 'phones on your head, how well would you be able to hear someone 5 feet away talking? I ask because when I do game competitively, it is usually with my room-mate on the same team, sitting about 5 feet away. Being able to hear one another well is very useful to my particular application. Another thing, what type of connection does it use? You mentioned it needing an external amp, so I'm guessing it has 3 x 3.5mm minis? Or 4 x 3.5mm? I think I remember seeing a mic on there in the video.

For sound quality, any gaming headphones that had excellent musical reproduction would have me worried about their usefulness as a high-end gaming headphone. The reason being that you are dealing with two entirely different types of material. A lot of the high-end gaming gear is engineered with intention of emphasizing certain freq. ranges. Notably the sound of footsteps and gun shots. Human voice is also an important range, but more for clarity rather than what you might call "musicality." The best gaming headphones I've used to date sound absolutely terrible when listening to music, but the aforementioned sounds are crystal clear. Basically, I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't say gaming headphones have bad SQ, just different SQ. Except for the ones that actually do have bad SQ, of course.

I have to say, the styling is a bit of a turn-off though. Can you do me a favor and let them know that not every gamer has horrendous taste? Seriously, tell them. Not every gamer has a hard-on for Tennessee orange and neon green. That said though, I am certainly interested in the product. Having used them, I'd appreciate your answers to my inquiries, as well as your personal thoughts on them.

Thanks,
Brad

denim · Post by **denim** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:19 am

I really should be going as it is a great marketing and networking tool. But will probably have to wait until next year. And even then, we will still have to be spectators. Booths at SEMA and CES are so $$$.

Post by **stipud** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:08 am

Grim0013 wrote:The idea of using waveguides for 5.1 gaming 'phones sounds pretty awesome to me. I'm not much of a gamer these days, but I'd still consider something like this for when I do play. Age, injury and VA provided opiates have dulled my reaction time, so I need every edge I can get.

Yeah, it is definitely a very unique design. All the other surround sound headphones I have seen either depend solely on DSP, or mount numerous speakers inside of the headphone. All of these have yielded piss-poor results IMO. The multi speaker ones pack in earbud sized drivers into a big headphone, which just makes it sound tinny, and most require DSP as well to process the center channel. And I just don't find the DSP ones convincing -- my good Beyerdynamics with software DSP seem to work better in most cases.

What impresses me about the waveguide design is that your sources crossfeed nicely. When you listen to a stereo setup, the sound from the right speaker also enters your left ear, but with a slight delay, and a bit quieter. The same thing happens with these waveguides. The center channel is distributed evenly, but the right and left channels are louder in the given ear, however they do also crossfeed a bit and give a much more realistic stereo image that way. And all of this is done through the natural design of the headphones, rather than using signal processing to achieve it. Very cool.

Grim0013 wrote:I know exactly what the later poster was talking about with the way Bioshock and other games play with clarity to give a perception of direction, but that is a hack at best. It relies on changing the sound to establish position. The "odd" sound clues you in that it is not coming from in front, but it doesn't tell you where it is actually coming from. Further, when dealing with something like a single gun shot, you don't really get enough data for your brain to localize the sound with this method. You have to rely on your brain to process the changing sound as you "move" in-game. Sure, it works for speech or similarly sustained sounds, but I find it much less effective when dealing with a "singularity" since there is no continuing sound. This method is kind of like using triangulation to pinpoint position on a map. (except instead of using a second point source at the same time, it relies upon a follow-up in the time domain to fix position) In a competitive FPS environment, being able to instantly and accurately pinpoint the source's direction can and does make a difference. Is it game-changing? No, but it does help, and from experience in competitive gaming, a 30 or 40 millisecond edge can make or break you in some situations. How many times has someone taken a shot at you, but missed, so you take cover, only to find they still have a good sight picture on you because you didn't accurately localize the source?

I unfortunately only had about 1 minute of real game time with these headphones, but for that minute I was pretty impressed. It's nice to have positional sound without it being immediately muffled when you put your back to something. Also, unlike the other multispeaker cans, these things have gobs of bass. Since they don't have to put the five surround speakers in the phone, the only speakers in there are dedicated "subwoofers", which have a separate gain control on the amp. So you get a pretty full sound, though the waveguides do sponge up a bit of the lower midrange.

Grim0013 wrote:One thing I am very curious about, as it would weigh heavily in my decision to purchase, is how well can you hear external sound? Like, with these 'phones on your head, how well would you be able to hear someone 5 feet away talking? I ask because when I do game competitively, it is usually with my room-mate on the same team, sitting about 5 feet away. Being able to hear one another well is very useful to my particular application. Another thing, what type of connection does it use? You mentioned it needing an external amp, so I'm guessing it has 3 x 3.5mm minis? Or 4 x 3.5mm? I think I remember seeing a mic on there in the video.

One interesting design is that the cups can physically be opened up. The plexi panels over the earpieces can be flipped out to "vent" your ears, and so you can hear the person next to you. I assume they could be removed completely if you wanted.

The demo models I saw had two separate amps. The first had a simple fiber-optic input, and would decode and then send output through standard computer 5.1 connectors to the headphones. The second amp just took in the standard outputs, and put them out the same. I believe they were 4 wire sound, with 1 separate mic, so 5 wires all together.

Grim0013 wrote:For sound quality, any gaming headphones that had excellent musical reproduction would have me worried about their usefulness as a high-end gaming headphone. The reason being that you are dealing with two entirely different types of material. A lot of the high-end gaming gear is engineered with intention of emphasizing certain freq. ranges. Notably the sound of footsteps and gun shots. Human voice is also an important range, but more for clarity rather than what you might call "musicality." The best gaming headphones I've used to date sound absolutely terrible when listening to music, but the aforementioned sounds are crystal clear. Basically, I guess I'm saying that I wouldn't say gaming headphones have bad SQ, just different SQ. Except for the ones that actually do have bad SQ, of course.

Since I brought my Beyers to the demo I got a good impression of their tonality. It would definitely not be accurate for music, but for gaming they seemed to be good. Once they get production models rolling, they said I would be getting a pair to do an extensive test with. This is great, because I just upgraded my PC, and finally have a soundcard with 5.1 output, so I am eager to try them out.

Grim0013 wrote:I have to say, the styling is a bit of a turn-off though. Can you do me a favor and let them know that not every gamer has horrendous taste? Seriously, tell them. Not every gamer has a hard-on for Tennessee orange and neon green. That said though, I am certainly interested in the product. Having used them, I'd appreciate your answers to my inquiries, as well as your personal thoughts on them.

The shape of the headphones seems to be determined by function over form. The waveguides use a combination of ABS and rubber injection so that they are flexible in the right parts, and stiff in others. Since the waveguides can't be extended/shortened, the cups actually slide up and down instead.

While the prototype colors were orange and green, their CES mockups were red instead.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:19 am

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:Canada has a new Rodin distributor now. From once side of the country (Trends, Vancouver) to the other (AVS, Montreal)

http://www.cepro.com/article/rodin_name ... ributor/K3

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:25 pm

I posted kickers new lineup of stuff, which looked pretty nice, especially the qs components. Here is what mtx has

http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/su ... er24sq.cfm

new 24inch square jack hammer..

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:47 am

Lets just regurgitate the same old bullshit.WOW a square woofer BFD

DUDE its 24inches, SWEET. Remember Stewart from Mad TV? He sums it up the best....

quote

"Look what I can do"

Post by **Rold Gold** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:56 am

I can't beleve that PG isn't going this year.......

First time in 20 years they wont be there I hear.... I know they got some awesome gear ready to come out too..... We've all "heard things" here and there about it. I guess it's gonna be up to us to spread the internet-word..........once we get a good look at all of it that is..........

I'm excited to see the new RSdC comp set myself. But who isn't right.

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:13 am

FuzzyHoNutz wrote:I can't beleve that PG isn't going this year.......
First time in 20 years they wont be there I hear.... I know they got some awesome gear ready to come out too..... We've all "heard things" here and there about it. I guess it's gonna be up to us to spread the internet-word..........once we get a good look at all of it that is..........

I'm excited to see the new RSdC comp set myself. But who isn't right.

From the link I posted:

AVS Technologies will introduce and feature Phoenix Gold home and mobile audio products and AudioSource products during the 2009 Consumer Electronics Show (CES).

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:22 pm

I want a jack hamma so I can getz teh debeezzzzzz

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:23 pm

I'll be at the show tomorrow. I'll try to snap off a few pics for you guys.

Post by **AVICJR** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:48 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:I'll be at the show tomorrow. I'll try to snap off a few pics for you guys.

Please do!! Especially several shots of the much awaited RSDC comps. I want a set as soon as I can get my hands on them.

Post by **stipud** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:56 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:I'll be at the show tomorrow. I'll try to snap off a few pics for you guys.

Tell the Psyko guys I said hi, I'm sure they would get a kick out of it... plus it ups my cred

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:09 pm

AVICJR wrote:
dedlyjedly wrote:I'll be at the show tomorrow. I'll try to snap off a few pics for you guys.
Please do!! Especially several shots of the much awaited RSDC comps. I want a set as soon as I can get my hands on them.

I am holding my thoughts of getting them, until I see them, and see some specs. As of now, those new kicker comps look great.

Post by **AVICJR** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:37 pm

Mackenzie wrote:As of now, those new kicker comps look great.

Which ones?

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:50 am

dedlyjedly wrote:I'll be at the show tomorrow. I'll try to snap off a few pics for you guys.

And some Audison to please(THESIS AMPS AND DRIVERS)

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:01 am

AVICJR wrote:
Mackenzie wrote:As of now, those new kicker comps look great.
Which ones?

Go to kickers site, and look at the qs comps that are coming out. They look very nice. Tempting

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:55 pm

well i made a whirlwind trip through the exhibition hall and snapped a few pics. only new thing I learned today is that I can't take a picture worth a shit! nonetheless, I'll post a few tomorrow.

PG was one of many companies that pulled a no-show at this year's CES. To be honest, the North Hall (mobile electronics) was far from full and it was a little depressing. The real big player that didn't show up was Rockford, but in good fashion they announced that they wouldn't be coming over a year ago. In contrast, I received an email a few months ago that led me to believe PG would not only be at the show, but would be releasing information on new products. Maybe I just read too much into the statement, "Limited information on the new lines will be available early January 2009," but the assumption that a product update in early January will occur at CES isn't too much of a stretch considering the email was sent to dealers that attend this industry trade show! Damnit! Pg frustrates me, but what's new?!

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:27 am

There was that press release saying AVS would be at CES showing off Rodin, PG and AudioSource stuff... maybe one the PG guys can elaborate?

Post by **AVICJR** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:24 pm

Jed- can you please snap some pics of Exile's new stuff if they're there please.

Mackenzie · Post by **Mackenzie** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:06 pm

pg a no show at ces? Cant say Im surpised. Somehow they always seem to disappoint, and leave alot to be desired in some way or another..

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:53 am

Shit. It's late and of course I forgot to get the pics up. Here's just a few to hold you over.

I had already been to the show before seeing a lot of your requests, but as luck would have it had a few of the right pics already taken. Didn't make it to the gaming portion of the show though Tom. Didn't see or hear anything about exile either. In the past they had always done things off-site though.

I apologize for the terrible quality pics.

Arc Audio 4000SE

Damnit! Imageshack is pissing down its leg. I need a flikr account or something. any suggestions?

Post by **stipud** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:21 am

You can email me all the pics, and I can upload them here... or you can use the attachment form... or use Flickr or Photobucket.

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:40 pm

Sorry fellas, this weekend has been crazy with work and the show. I'll try to email them over to you Tom but for some reason everything is uploading super slow! You still have your gmail right?

denim · Post by **denim** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:36 am

No worries, we are grateful for any pictures that you took.

Also, it seems more and more audio companies are shifting to SEMA over CES.