PG 4Runner

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Thanks for the information and ideas guys, I'm taking all of it into consideration... although I really doubt lining my whole truck with a dampener/deadner is within my budget. I should at least be able to deadner the kick panels though.

[AVICJR]

although I really doubt lining my whole truck with a dampener/deadner is within my budget.

If you can't buy it in small amounts (raammat) it would be easy to resell what you don't use on this forum as every one is always looking for some.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

I decided to use modeling clay to deaden the kicks. It's oil based stuff that never dries. Got it at an art supplies store. Wasn't cheap but it wasn't ruthlessly expensive either.

I'll post pics of what I've done so far pretty soon. Tom and I basically "coated" the back of the kicks so far. I should be getting some small enclosures as well since the kicks aren't sealed and then deaden those up too with some more clay. Should be pretty heavy and dead when I'm done with it.

This stuff is dense and really deadens the kick panels even with the pretty shallow coating Tom and I applied. I bought 9lbs of it but I'll probably only use half of it considering the size of the kicks and how much I can actually fit in there. Maybe I can use the rest somewhere else... who knows?

And by the way... thanks for the suggestion dedlyjedly! This was definitely the way to go considering the shape of the kicks and the fact that I can mold the clay in perfectly where a mat-type product would have been much more difficult to use in this particular situation. I would have never thought of this myself!

[dedlyjedly]

Glad that worked out for you. I'm sure you'll be filling in the rest of the sound treatments before too long!

[stipud]

I am crapping anticipation right now. You guys will love the new enclosures that fuzzy made all by himself!

Oh man I can't wait to hear them.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Well, I'm speechless... Today, Tom and I temporarily installed my Q-Logic Q-forms kick panels with those 3.5" Kicker speakers I had been running in the stock locations. I'm really waiting for my RSd 6" component set but this would have to do for now, I thought to myself.

I wasn't expecting much.

The kickers are bright and never really liked being turned up in the stock locations while running off the deck. They distorted easily.

I'm blown away by the difference running these little speakers from amp power and in properly sealed and deadned kick panels has made. I ended up using probably about 6lbs of clay between the two kick panels, they're freakin' heavy!

another possibility for the q-forms is some modeling clay. if you've got room for a hefty layer on the backside of the kick-panel it would do wonders.

You have no idea how right you are... Thank you, thank you, thank you for the idea. It works well beyond my expectations.

Well, what more can I say? I'll have to show you the kicks so you can see for yourself

Back with the first coating of modeling clay

Back with the cup ready to be hot glued into place

First layer of clay around the cup

Ghetto-fab baby!

So, after getting these things installed, Tom hooks up the speaker wires to the M44 only to find it overloading after playing a second of music. Tom narrowed the problem down to the left front channel shorting itself out somehow. We looked for any source of exterior short but we couldn't find anything. Testing the left speaker setup with the right channel also showed no problems so we knew the problem was inside the amp...

The culprit, post fix. One of the resistor had fallen loose from it's trace on one end. Tom and I fixed with it with a soldering iron. I still suck at soldering that's why Tom did it and I just pushed the lead through.

Back of the circuit board

Front of the circuit board

The big caps

The smaller caps, they look like they've been replaced in the past

And the install look?

Head unit with Tom's iPod hooked up.

Driver's side kick panel installed with the 3.5" driver

Now, if you still don't believe me about the sound... I've got a video for you

I'm basically shitting myself thinking about what the RSd's are going to sound like installed this way... these 3.5's are giving some pretty impressive mid-bass for garbage drivers.

[AVICJR]

What's the diameter on the cup and where did you get it? If you don't mind me asking. Good job, you can tell you pay attention to detail which makes for a clean install.

[Ahsmo]

nice video. Sick kick panels.

It proves that no matter how shitty the speaker might be...its all in the install

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Good question on the diameter... it's about 6.5" or so I think. I believe it's claimed to "support" up to a 6.5" driver and there are little "tabs" around the perimeter for mounting them.

I got it at Canadian Tire. It's made by some "Ai" company or rather, I actually think it might be the same parent company that makes the q-forms! That would be weird.

It was $10CAD for the two cups, which is stupid considering they are thin ass plastic with basically nothing to it... and that's where the clay comes into play.

I still can't believe that those temporary 3.5" shitty kicker drivers are producing the sound I'm hearing in the truck. I'm still , big time.

So yeah, so far, the q-forms are GREAT... *IF* (and this is a pretty big if) you seal and deaden them up. I ran one side unsealed and barely, if even, half-deadened and it didn't sound nearly as good. So my recommendation if someone is looking at these things is to understand that they can sound amazing if you install them with something to seal your driver and some weight to lower the resonant frequency well below what the driver is capable of.

EDIT: The cups are made my "American International" (http://www.aius.net). Apparently CanadianTire carries a lot of their low-end installation products. Their product catalog has only a single reference to the cup, in the form of a blurry image

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Minor update:

I got the RSDs!

Well, at first I was underwhelmed... but it wasn't the RSD's fault, I just couldn't get the mouting surface sealed and one mounting screw on each enclosure rattled annoyingly

The solution was obvious, rebuild the kicks properly for the RSDs. And that's what I did. I also found a way to seal the mounting surface so now it's totally sealed. Perhaps even too small... but that could be solved later this summer if totally necessary but I doubt it will be.

Anyways, pictures! That's what everyone wants right?!?

The component set, unboxed.


Relative to hand size, this is the 6" set.


The tweeter and woofer installed in the kick properly once and for all!


The backside of the finished kick panel. The wire coming out of the enclosure is sealed with hot glue underneath the clay.


And the sound? Clear and defined. These 6" must not have as much mid bass as the 6.5" which everyone raves about because while the 6" has good mid bass, I don't think they are particularly super duper, maybe I'm just too much of a noob to know. Maybe my enclosure is too small as Tom has already suggested.

Either way, fantastic. Really. Tom and you guys really got me into PG with such high praise... and now I know why. The M44 is astounding, I never thought an amp could make that kind of difference but I was soooooo wrong, this amp made Kicker 3.5" drivers very acceptable, that's no minor feat! The Xmax 10" is very accurate. The RSDs are clean and tight, I love that.

From Frank Sinatra to Rage Against the Machine to Converge to Do Make Say Think to At the Drive In to Block Party to DJ Shadow to Bahamadia to Dr. Dre to Rammstein to Truckee Brothers to Elliot Smith to to Dave Brubeck to whatever, it's all been sounding great.

Many thanks to all those that have supported my installation with help in acquiring equipment and tuning and troubleshooting the gear I have installed as well as plenty of tips along the way.

I'm really hoping at this point to be able to "clean up" the install in the summer. It's dreadfully cold right now and tearing out my seats to mount the crossovers and measure speaker wires is far too annoying and painful for now.

Next little step is installing the Dayton Audio Reference Series 5" speakers Tom ordered on my behalf from Parts Express to replace my stock rears.

All that taken into account, I think I've spent around $1000CAD on this install. About twice as much as I initially anticipated but all of you knew that already didn't you? DIDN'T YOU? WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME!!!!!!!


Oh right, you all did. Damnit!

[Bfowler]

nice, im glad they are working out....the rsd can handle a ton of power, i i think that might be the difference between the "crazy midbass" and the Decent middbass" you are experianceing. this is a damn nice little system.

btw, your lpl is going out today

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Just a quick follow up on the Dayton Audio Reference Series 5" speakers before I update the RSD and total install review...

Just like everything else, Tom and I magically seemed to always pick just the right size driver for the job. First the RSD6cs just barely fits in the kick panels, now the blind guess for the rear fits nearly exactly without any prior certainty. It's not always that easy, is it?

More pictures! We didn't have the digital cameras around the house last weekend because the ladies took them on a trip so I used my Macbook built-in iSight cam for these shots...


A close up of the driver in the enclosure, fitting just right. I had to make new screw holes as the stocks had a 4 bolt pattern but that was also very easy.




A wider shot of the enclosure and me in the garage




Holding the stock driver up to the enclosure with the dayton installed



And the sound? Good.

They are pretty bassy and you'd think that might be bad being their purpose is rear fill for the mids but it seems to work well from the driver's seat at least. Tom got to ride in the back yesterday and he listened to the rears as I faded it back and forth so maybe he's better at reviewing their actually purpose, which is more rear fill in the midrange for the people on the back bench.

I fade pretty far to the front when I'm cranking the system as the rears are still powered from the H/U and distort easily if pushed too hard from that source. When it's quieter though, it sound much fuller, even in the front with more rear fill. Very nice indeed, too bad the Alpine UI is a bit stinky so fading all the time isn't ultra convenient.

I'm shitting myself happy though overall. They do add a little bit to the install and I was already shitting myself without them (j/k!)

Unless I made any error in calculations, this ENTIRE installation, start to finish cost me $880CAD, including all the little shit. Schweet!

So yeah... next and perhaps last post in this thread will be the final follow up for the Winter install. Things will change a bit in better weather but I don't know if it will change enough to warrant updates. Maybe, though.

[stipud]

The Dayton's sound amazing for how cheap they were. I was beyond impressed with the build quality on them. They have this awesome no-bullshit look... very sleek and stylish design. Hands down the best look and feel for the money I have ever seen.

They do sound great, just as fuzzy said. When we tested them in the stock enclosures with the rest of the stereo turned off, they sounded phenomenal... even off of deck power. Surprising amount of midbass from such a small speaker, and perfect midrange. It sounded like they rolled off a little on the low side, so there isn't very much treble coming from them. Perfect for rear fill.

With me sitting in the back seat, and the rear fill off, the sub is a bit overwhelming. Turning the subwoofer down yields amazing results in the back seat, but not so great in the front. Turning the subwoofer up, then fading in the rear a bit adds enough sound in the back that you can still hear the music, however it does lack a bit of treble. This is alright, because it still sounds amazing up front, and that's what really matters in the end.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Well, finally. A mini overall review after it's mostly all said and done. Wow, that all happened really fast. I can't believe it.

I figure what better way to post a review than to be sitting outside in my truck listening to the sound and then describing my reaction to it. Yes, we get wireless signal in the garage

Since I was already just out there, I can already point some general stuff out, most of this I've said other places on this forum here and there, if you're keeping up you can probably ignore this re-hashing:

I like how there is low "competition" on all of the frequency ranges. I don't really have more than one woofer playing the same main ranges although the RSD woofer and the dayton woofer do play much of the same stuff. I think this makes everything very clean at all frequencies, with little blurring or dynamic distortions at increased volumes.

Fading the rear Dayton Audio Reference Series 5" woofers too much isn't very good, but only because I'm powering them off the H/U amp. I believe with a decent amp (or, say if I got another amp for the sub) they could sound quite good at volume as they already sound very deep and full at mid range volumes from the H/U, just not clean enough when the volume goes up.

So... now I go walk out to the truck, see you when I get there.

Part 2 within 20 or so minutes.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

First thing I'm trying is playing nothing but the RSd comp set.

They have very good mid bass, the mids sound good to me (I don't know better!) and the high blends well. They are simply amazing. Keep in mind my enclosures are not tiny, but not large and VERY dead. They have good response in this enclosure, I can't imagine it being much better than this for just two woofers and two tweets.

Ok, adding in the rears.

They almost sound like mini-sub woofers. They play vvvveeeerrrryyyy deep for 5" and for running off the H/U. They do distort a bit a higher volumes though, which is remedied by fading. I'm actually starting to like them more and more, the rear fill in a large interior like this actually works, I think. It's just 50% more "full" with rear fill in moderate volume applications. Again, at high volumes, less rear is necessary for clean sound.

Add the sub and it sounds almost perfectly like the next "step" or range. It blends very well to the point where most of it is not locateable but feels somewhat like from both off the windshield and behind the seat.

The drums in many tracks have a 3D feel to them. I can almost envision a rack of toms across the windshield sometimes, granted that could just be the influence of something else. It's almost like re-experiencing familiar music and recordings.

I feel like such a noob because I can't really compare this to much.

It's the best sound system, car or home, I've really experienced for any length of time.... for you guys, that might mean nothing because my experience is much more limited, for me though, it's true.

I like to think I know quality when I see it. The PG gear I have is quality, at least my definition of it. And the people who helped hook me up are gentlemen!

That's it folks, the mini review

[stipud]

Now just get some grilles in there before someone puts their feet through your RSDs!

You should review my car tonight... we can also have a mini subwoofer faceoff (Xmax, IDMax, RSD and comedy option JL W1). Should also get those Tang Bands installed if we have time.

[rlockwood]

has anyone else noticed how much better the average install on this site has gotten?

very nice.. simple, beautiful!

[stipud]

has anyone else noticed how much better the average install on this site has gotten?

very nice.. simple, beautiful!

All it takes is enough encouragement and energy to make that first step of starting the install. Once you start, it's easy to keep momentum. This is why I think installs of all qualities should be posted, so that we can encourage people to improve, or get ideas from better installs.

But I wholeheartedly agree. Ryan is the only one who took time to learn while I helped him through this. In fact, he did most of the install himself. Most people just end up hanging around while I do the work, but I got to watch for a change. Way to go Ryan!

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

has anyone else noticed how much better the average install on this site has gotten?

very nice.. simple, beautiful!

Thanks, that's exactly what I was going for: simplicity. It means a lot when people who are also in to this kind of thing give me support by means of encouragement or compliments

All it takes is enough encouragement and energy to make that first step of starting the install. Once you start, it's easy to keep momentum. This is why I think installs of all qualities should be posted, so that we can encourage people to improve, or get ideas from better installs.

I totally agree. Hell, when I started this install, I didn't do anything by myself or without your help, now I'm tweaking things here and there because I've learned so much over the months of installing and working on this. The more I learn, and the more good suggestions and help I get here, the better the install turns out, who woulda funk it?!?

But I wholeheartedly agree. Ryan is the only one who took time to learn while I helped him through this. In fact, he did most of the install himself. Most people just end up hanging around while I do the work, but I got to watch for a change. Way to go Ryan!

Awwww, thanks Tom!

I realized that's how you felt about working with people on these kind of projects before and I felt like kind of a tool not knowing enough to do it by myself at the start and you were basically doing 75% of the work... but I was so much better off learning with someone there beside me while it was first going in than 100% independently. After the amp and sub installation, I was able to do most of the work myself even though I still needed (and still need) a lot questions answered.

Tom, at the very least let's do a subwoofer shootout soon. I'm gone for dinner tonight but whenever after that is good, maybe after dinner tonight?

Notice the time that review was posted? Yeah, I was up late...

[stipud]

Awwww, thanks Tom!

I realized that's how you felt about working with people on these kind of projects before and I felt like kind of a tool not knowing enough to do it by myself at the start and you were basically doing 75% of the work... but I was so much better off learning with someone there beside me while it was first going in than 100% independently. After the amp and sub installation, I was able to do most of the work myself even though I still needed (and still need) a lot questions answered.

Tom, at the very least let's do a subwoofer shootout soon. I'm gone for dinner tonight but whenever after that is good, maybe after dinner tonight?

Notice the time that review was posted? Yeah, I was up late...

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel bad doing people's installs for them. Some people just don't have a mind for it. In most cases I get paid back in some way, so it's all good.

Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.

I will see how Wendy feels after work, because she really wanted to help me install those 6x9's. It would be awesome to get her opinion in the woofer test as well

[rlockwood]

it just seems like with each iteration of the site, the hacks have filtered out a bit each time.... cept pandy seems to be sticking :/

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Well, as some of you know, I've been running the RSd comps in my kick panels without grills for some time... something bad was about to happen.

Well, to do something before anything bad happened, I decided to build some "good enough for now" grills from the crap I had laying around. Unfortunately I needed to buy some weather stripping stuff with one stick side to get the job done. $6, no big deal.

They turned out alright. They seem to be strong enough to prevent anyone from kicking the speakers and the grill material itself is small enough to prevent rocks and stuff from falling in. It won't keep dust out though. I made the actual grill from the grills that came with the kicks which ended up not fitting due to the very, very tight fit of the RSDs in the kicks. I cut them smaller and held them in with the weather stripping.

Here's what a finished kick looks like on the bench:


A closeup of my quick and dirty work:


Here's what the passenger kick looks like installed:


From farther out:


Driver's side kick close-up:


And from farther out again:


Now, I also decided to use disconnects for the mid and tweet speaker leads out the back of my kicks. I want these because I remove the kick panels when I go offroading and install the stock ones. I don't want to ruin my RSDs with either mud or impact by taking them offroad.

I decided to use bullet style disconnects. Of course, I installed the insulated end on the inside so I don't short anything when it's disconnected.

The kick panel bullet connectors:


Close up:


Inside the truck:


That's about all.

Just a little cleaning up, that's all.

[VW337]

They are pretty bassy ..................

The reason you are getting so much bass from them is that enclosure they are in, it is tuned to make shitty speakers sound decent and decent speakers will sound amazing. I used to reuse the factory enclosures whenever possible just for that reason.

[dedlyjedly]

I can probably round up an extra set of grills for you if you want a scrap set.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

The RSD grills won't actually fit on the kicks. I would have used them instead of this hack job but installing them is also a hack job! I have a set that I tried to hack into shape but just aren't right.

In the mean time, I'll be thinking about a classier way to do these grills. But for now, they are better than not running any grills.